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+18:17 * NeddySeagoon bangs the gavel to open the meeting
+18:17 <@NeddySeagoon> Roll call
+18:17 * NeddySeagoon is here
+18:17 <@dabbott> here
+18:17 * quantumsummers_ is present
+18:18 <@rich0> here with five bars :)
+18:18 * quantumsummers_ pokes robbat2
+18:19 <@NeddySeagoon> I'm logging
+18:20 <@NeddySeagoon> Ok, we have quorum, lets go. robbat2 will catch up
+18:20 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers its all yours. Item 3 old business
+18:20 <@quantumsummers_> ok
+18:21 <@quantumsummers_> I had mentioned previously the general cost of CPA assistance as well as the filing fee
+18:21 <@robbat2> sorry few mins delay, real life, still afk
+18:21 <@quantumsummers_> np, robbat2
+18:22 <@quantumsummers_> I have made it fairly far into the finances, still working on this years stuff, but its not technically finished (the fiscal year)
+18:22 <@quantumsummers_> sent the paypal thing to you guys for some reference
+18:22 <@quantumsummers_> sooo, I have a few things to propose
+18:23 <@quantumsummers_> 1. Based on the general costs of CPA assistance coming all within the same range, I propose we engage KPM for our CPA <- Motion. Can I get a second?
+18:24 <@NeddySeagoon> Seconded
+18:24 <@quantumsummers_> Please call the vote Mr. NeddySeagoon
+18:24 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, is that the CPA you normaly work with ?
+18:24 <@NeddySeagoon> Vote for KPM for our CPA
+18:24 <@quantumsummers_> for reference I use this CPA for both my personal and all business activities ( 3 business)
+18:24 <@NeddySeagoon> Aye
+18:24 <@quantumsummers_> aye
+18:24 <@rich0> aye
+18:25 <@dabbott> yes
+18:25 <@NeddySeagoon> Motion carried
+18:25 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, what contract term ?
+18:25 <@quantumsummers_> its a project rate essentially
+18:25 <@quantumsummers_> which works in our favor I belive
+18:26 <@NeddySeagoon> ok. Not a fixed time period
+18:26 <@dabbott> quantumsummers, this is them correct
+18:26 <@quantumsummers_> pay per filing, not a fixed time
+18:26 <@quantumsummers_> dabbott yes
+18:26 <@quantumsummers_> I have been working with them for 5 year now
+18:26 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, do they want a link on the foundation page ?
+18:26 <@quantumsummers_> their rates were comparable or lower than others
+18:26 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: they did not request anything like that
+18:27 <@NeddySeagoon> Should we offer ? In the spirit of openness we should post who we employ
+18:27 <@robbat2> back
+18:27 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: I can see if they are interested, sure.
+18:28 <@NeddySeagoon> Please continue
+18:28 <@quantumsummers_> in any event, I doubt they will mind if we post we are contracting with them
+18:28 <@robbat2> aye for KPM as CPA from me
+18:29 <@quantumsummers_> 2. I propose we file as a corporation in the state of Missouri. Reasons as follows; I can more easily manage finances with a local bank account. It will let us use my office and PO Box (free of charge) as legal "headquarters", and since there is no one in NM we could at some point wind that down. <- Motion.
+18:30 <@quantumsummers_> this should make things somewhat easier, and we can get mail
+18:30 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, is this as well as or instead of NM
+18:30 <@rich0> clarify - we will incorporate in both?
+18:30 <@quantumsummers_> the NM entity will remain in existence until it is obsolete
+18:31 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, do you propose to continue as treasurer ?
+18:31 <@quantumsummers_> rich0: we are incorporated in NM, the motion is to file for incorporation in MO additionally
+18:31 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: I think that is a good idea at this point
+18:31 <@quantumsummers_> perhaps I should transition from Secretary
+18:31 <@robbat2> what tax implications does it have?
+18:31 <@rich0> fine as long as it doesnt add a great paperwork burden
+18:31 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, I'm worred about both the workload and the 'bus factor' ...
+18:31 <@quantumsummers_> simple filing for MO
+18:32 <@quantumsummers_> robbat2: ^ both to incorporate and file taxes
+18:32 <@rich0> nm doent seem bad - most of the issue is federal
+18:32 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers_, does this mean we have to do annual filings in both states ?
+18:32 <@quantumsummers_> that is correct, however it will make it easier to have an official location where a trustee lives
+18:33 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: yes, but its a single page deal, very simple
+18:33 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, ok.
+18:33 <@rich0> seems to me that if we get the irs under control the states just follow, but nokt familiar with mi
+18:33 <@quantumsummers_> main reason is banking, impo
+18:33 <@quantumsummers_> Missouri is a favorable state to non-profit corporations
+18:33 <@NeddySeagoon> Seconded than we incorporate in Mo as well as NM
+18:34 <@rich0> ok, aye from me
+18:34 <@quantumsummers_> its like filing to do official business in the state
+18:34 <@robbat2> aye from me
+18:34 <@quantumsummers_> which has beneficial side effect of making banking much easier.
+18:34 <@dabbott> aye from me also
+18:34 <@quantumsummers_> aye
+18:34 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, I would really like to see you divest yourself of one of yur officer roles to make the Foundation more robust
+18:34 <@NeddySeagoon> aye
+18:34 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: I would like that too
+18:35 <@NeddySeagoon> Motion carried
+18:35 <@quantumsummers_> thanks
+18:35 <@quantumsummers_> #3
+18:35 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, lets repost the ad you responded to
+18:35 <@NeddySeagoon> see if we can't get an 'outdider'
+18:35 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: ok.
+18:35 <@NeddySeagoon> outsider
+18:36 <@quantumsummers_> I think the secretary role should go to someone in the US, since its a signatory role
+18:36 <@quantumsummers_> rather important
+18:36 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, agreed
+18:36 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, you have some more
+18:36 <@quantumsummers_> though we should solicit for an assistant secretary
+18:37 <@quantumsummers_> maybe dabbott or rich0 want the Secretary job?
+18:37 <@NeddySeagoon> sure. If we get two applicants we can appoint them both
+18:37 <@quantumsummers_> I will still support my membership webapp, although I hope to deprecate it with the GSoC work this summer
+18:37 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: sounds good
+18:37 <@rich0> do noot mind, but let me review. not a bad idea to post it.
+18:37 <@NeddySeagoon> I would like to get a Gentoo outsider if we can - split the officer / trustee relaionship
+18:38 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: we just need to be careful, that is all.
+18:38 <@quantumsummers_> ok great, so #3
+18:38 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, understood
+18:39 <@rich0> NeddySeagoon: agree outsider would be good
+18:39 <@quantumsummers_> In the case that in working through with the CPA, there may be some potential we need to engage an attorney that specializes in taxes. I do not have one in mind at this time (although I work with a few locally that have that specialty in house).
+18:40 <@quantumsummers_> a few firms I mean
+18:40 <@NeddySeagoon> Is that likely ?
+18:40 <@quantumsummers_> so, there is potential that would reduce our back taxes burden, in the case that the IRS "sticks it to us" so to speak
+18:41 <@NeddySeagoon> How does "attorney" translate into English ... solicitor or barrister ?
+18:41 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: I do not know for certain. I think its possible, but we will not know until we start filing things
+18:42 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: hmm, well that is a good question. An attorney is here is licensed and a member of the Bar association.
+18:42 <@quantumsummers_> which is to say that they are able to legally practice
+18:42 <@NeddySeagoon> A solicitor employs a barrister (at geat cost) for special things.
+18:43 <@quantumsummers_> barrister goes to court, right?
+18:43 <@NeddySeagoon> both go to court
+18:43 <@quantumsummers_> we do not have that distinction in the US
+18:43 <@quantumsummers_> that I am aware of anyway
+18:43 <@rich0> yup, we just have expensive and cheap lawyers, relatively
+18:43 <@quantumsummers_> I do not believe the cost would be great.
+18:44 <@NeddySeagoon> ok - I think I get the picture, In for a penny, in for a pound. It sounds like it is a spend to save thing.
+18:44 <@NeddySeagoon> We need to do what we need to do to get our 501c3
+18:44 <@quantumsummers_> main thing is we may need an advocate in the case that we need to make a case
+18:44 <@quantumsummers_> this relates to back taxes only
+18:45 <@rich0> probably best to only engage if cpa recommends
+18:45 <@quantumsummers_> not the 501c3
+18:45 <@quantumsummers_> rich0: exactly
+18:45 <@quantumsummers_> I just wanted everyone to be aware of the possibility
+18:45 <@NeddySeagoon> Have we made enough to be liable for tax - even if we were a for profit ?
+18:45 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: yes.
+18:46 <@NeddySeagoon> ok, I'm with rich0 ...
+18:46 <@quantumsummers_> the trouble is that the old trustees/officers did not file taxes that we are aware of
+18:46 <@quantumsummers_> so, there is a penalty for late filing
+18:46 <@robbat2> i have no objections to any findings re needing an attorney for back taxes, per any CPA recommendations
+18:46 <@NeddySeagoon> The IRS would know but I would hate to ask
+18:46 <@quantumsummers_> I will appraise the board of any necessities regarding legal assistance in this case well ahead of time
+18:47 <@NeddySeagoon> do we need a motion ? Since we are emplying a CPA, we would be daft not to follow their advice
+18:47 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: you can call the IRS and ask them things, just make sure you remain anonymous
+18:47 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: not at this time
+18:47 <@quantumsummers_> no motion required yet
+18:47 <@NeddySeagoon> ok
+18:47 <@rich0> might even ask cpa for recommended lawyerr. i am for.
+18:48 <@NeddySeagoon> any more quantumsummers ?
+18:48 <@quantumsummers_> rich0: yes, they have a few in house too
+18:48 <@quantumsummers_> so, here is the whole enchilada re: back taxes
+18:48 <@quantumsummers_> the IRS has a penalty (per day) for late filings with a max of $10,000 per year.
+18:48 <@quantumsummers_> I think its $25 per say
+18:48 <@quantumsummers_> *day
+18:48 <@quantumsummers_> HOWEVER
+18:49 <@quantumsummers_> I have been advised that we can make the case that we should not have to pay all that
+18:49 <@quantumsummers_> since its a relatively new board, and we are trying to get things straightened out, AND the IRS has not come looking for us as of now.
+18:49 <@quantumsummers_> the last bit is key'
+18:50 <@quantumsummers_> which is why I was upset by what wltjr was threatening (as it would mean my ass)
+18:50 <@NeddySeagoon> understood
+18:50 <@quantumsummers_> sooo, the real emphasis is that we need to get the ducks in a row as quickly as possible
+18:50 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, what help do you need ?
+18:51 <@quantumsummers_> based on what was decided today, I can get this rolling on Monday, first thing
+18:51 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: I have everything the CPA has requested. (I have been working with them on this for awhile now, they were not charging us as it was preliminary)
+18:51 <@NeddySeagoon> Can you email the alias with a timescale, when you have one
+18:51 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: yes sir
+18:51 <@rich0> sounds good to me. fyi will be akf for 10 mins
+18:52 <@quantumsummers_> I am thinking for the back filings 3-5 weeks
+18:52 <@quantumsummers_> for the 501c3, 4-6 weels
+18:52 <@quantumsummers_> in parallel
+18:52 <@NeddySeagoon> that sounds pretty good
+18:52 <@dabbott> sooner the better
+18:52 <@quantumsummers_> no joke
+18:52 <@NeddySeagoon> agreed
+18:52 <@NeddySeagoon> any more ?
+18:53 <@quantumsummers_> Total estimated cost for all the above is conservatively $8000
+18:53 <@quantumsummers_> that includes all filing fees with the states, 501c3 filing fee, CPA fee. It does not include any penalty we may have with the IRS
+18:53 <@NeddySeagoon> Thats a one time thing ... what about maintainence going forward ?
+18:54 <@NeddySeagoon> You can't estimate the IRS penalty
+18:54 <@quantumsummers_> maintenance going forward will be minimal, once I have everything setup. The general filing cost per year for federal and state taxes is ~$1000
+18:54 <@quantumsummers_> to have the CPA do it
+18:54 <@quantumsummers_> maybe a little less if I can get things automated enough
+18:54 <@NeddySeagoon> Go ahead - you have the motion of support
+18:54 <@quantumsummers_> working on that for the companies anyway
+18:54 <@quantumsummers_> the automation I mean
+18:55 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: ok.
+18:55 <@quantumsummers_> I have one last thing
+18:56 <@quantumsummers_> I would like to have the by laws gone through by an attorney in collaboration with the CPA
+18:56 <@NeddySeagoon> Motion ?
+18:56 <@quantumsummers_> not yet
+18:56 <@quantumsummers_> I will have the CPA tell me what we need, if anything
+18:56 <@quantumsummers_> she will know if we need to have some additional language in there
+18:56 <@NeddySeagoon> Seems line a good idea.
+18:56 <@dabbott> quantumsummers, noted
+18:57 <@quantumsummers_> if we need additional language I would prefer to have an attorney do it
+18:57 <@NeddySeagoon> sure
+18:57 <@quantumsummers_> ok, let see... I think that it all
+18:57 <@quantumsummers_> any questions
+18:57 <@quantumsummers_> ?
+18:57 <@NeddySeagoon> thanks quantumsummers you have had a busy month
+18:58 <@dabbott> what about contacting one of the accountant volunteers for dual role as asst secretary, one even sent us his resume :)
+18:58 <@quantumsummers_> dabbott that is an excellent idea
+18:58 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: its my pleasure
+18:58 <@NeddySeagoon> When do you intend to present the treasurers report ?
+18:59 <@quantumsummers_> well, it would be nice to have it done by the CPA when we end our fiscal year, but I can prepare a preliminary report within a week I think
+18:59 <@dabbott> quantumsummers, if there is anything we can help with be sure and ask
+18:59 <@quantumsummers_> I have the data for this year up to 2 week ago
+19:00 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers_, we need something to close the AGM off. We agreed we would have a EGM in August to shift the reporting year
+19:00 <@quantumsummers_> dabbott yes thanks, I am bad at that, but will try to make reasonable requests
+19:00 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: ok, I will make a report this week then. I will include last fiscal year too, since the CPA will be working on that starting asap
+19:01 <@NeddySeagoon> the bylaws only let us slip a month per year
+19:01 <@quantumsummers_> yes. Sorry for the delay in producing the report
+19:01 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers_, thanks. Anything else ?
+19:01 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: nothing more from me.
+19:02 <@NeddySeagoon> next item 4 bugs
+19:02 <@NeddySeagoon> We need up update our NM filing to remove fmmcor
+19:03 <@quantumsummers_> I will do that this week.
+19:03 <@NeddySeagoon> Thats his business address
+19:03 <@quantumsummers_> its $10
+19:03 <@dabbott>
+19:03 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, thanks - now the election results are in
+19:03 <@quantumsummers_> we will now use my office as the main physical address, and my PO box as main mailing address
+19:04 <@quantumsummers_> I think I can provide a fax number as well, via efax
+19:04 <@quantumsummers_> unless anyone has a better service in mind
+19:04 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, Don't we need an in stage NM address too - hence the need for Waye Chew
+19:04 <@NeddySeagoon> state*
+19:04 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: yes, that is our registered agent
+19:04 <@quantumsummers_> his address remains
+19:04 <@quantumsummers_> but no mail should go there
+19:04 <@NeddySeagoon> Ah .. ok. I understand the differene
+19:05 <@quantumsummers_> we need an agent in the state at all times to do business there
+19:05 <@quantumsummers_> hence why filing in Missouri will be convenient
+19:05 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers_, be careful with the fax number. You may get forums coppa forms there.
+19:06 <@quantumsummers_> hmm, well that is ok since its all digital
+19:06 <@NeddySeagoon> 5. New business
+19:06 <@NeddySeagoon> Proposal to build a set of MIPS development computers.
+19:07 <@NeddySeagoon> I propose that we fund this in stages as per the detail I posted to the alias
+19:07 <@quantumsummers_> seconded
+19:07 <@quantumsummers_> the proposal is well done
+19:07 <@NeddySeagoon> Vote
+19:07 <@NeddySeagoon> aye
+19:07 <@dabbott> As per mail alias yes
+19:07 <@quantumsummers_> aye
+19:08 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, robbat2 ?
+19:08 <@NeddySeagoon> carried anyway
+19:08 <@dabbott> NeddySeagoon, nice work with setting that up :)
+19:08 <@rich0> aye
+19:08 <@robbat2> aye
+19:09 <@NeddySeagoon> DiscoLibre Venezuela to be listed on the web as vendors. have one question.
+19:09 <@NeddySeagoon> Do they work as per GPL at cost or is it a money making venture ?
+19:10 <@dabbott> money making afaik
+19:10 <@NeddySeagoon> dabbott, they they need to offer us a %
+19:11 <@NeddySeagoon> I can't read the site.
+19:11 <@dabbott> I will email them and find out what they want, official or non official
+19:11 <@NeddySeagoon> dabbott, ok
+19:11 <@NeddySeagoon> held over until next month
+19:12 <@NeddySeagoon> Larry The Cow - Apply for a Trademark ?
+19:12 <@NeddySeagoon> Can we, its been around for a long time
+19:12 <@quantumsummers_> that will cost approx $2500
+19:13 <@dabbott> What is the procedure
+19:13 <@rich0> not sure it is essential. has anybody looked at Debian's logo policy. I like it - they have separate logos for official vs community use and terms for each
+19:13 <@quantumsummers_> get an attorney to file the paperwork
+19:13 <@NeddySeagoon> Should we apply for a trademark then. Its not like the G logo
+19:14 <@quantumsummers_> I do not feel the necessity
+19:14 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, I'll put that on my reading list
+19:14 <@rich0> I tend to agree - the copyright and derived nature of the mark makes it weak anyway.
+19:14 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, I don't either
+19:14 <@quantumsummers_> I can talk to my main attorney about it, informally
+19:15 <@rich0> reason I mentioned debian is that their general logo can be used for anybody under certain circumstances - kind of like mozilla's
+19:15 <@quantumsummers_> I am going thru it now with some work stiff
+19:15 <@quantumsummers_> *stuff
+19:15 <@quantumsummers_> rich0: I like that, must read up
+19:15 <@rich0> If I burn CDs from the debian official ISOs I can charge $1k and use the community logo, for example
+19:15 <@dabbott> I like the idea of one official logo and the more relaxed community logos
+19:15 <@NeddySeagoon> dabbott, Me too but that does not mean we need to trademake it
+19:16 <@rich0> Only debian projects can use the official logos - which are similar but different
+19:16 <@dabbott> can we sell Larry the cow logo t-shirts in the store?
+19:16 <@NeddySeagoon> Larray and G and quite different but both associated with Gentoo
+19:16 <@quantumsummers_> dabbott sure we can
+19:17 <@dabbott> or would that need to be put in a community store
+19:17 <@rich0> Still, until we change policy I'm all for following the status quo with DiscoLibre.
+19:17 <@quantumsummers_> this reminds me of something, the gentoo-ev site says Gentoo (R) is a registered trademark of Gentoo eV
+19:17 <@rich0> And either way I'm not sure Larry is a good mark - we don't even own copyright on it. No harm in using it legally, but not a good way to build an IP base.
+19:18 <+a3li> quantumsummers_: what's wrong with that?
+19:18 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, Policy is that if its like GPL, a nominal cost, its fine, we give them a link. If they make money, we want a cut
+19:18 <@quantumsummers_> a3li: Gentoo is registered to the Foundation
+19:18 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers_, thats correct. the e.V own the mark in Europe
+19:18 <@rich0> NeddySeagoon: yup - no issue with that and any change should be carefully considered
+19:18 <+a3li> quantumsummers_: we *do* have a trademark in europe
+19:18 <@quantumsummers_> ok then :D
+19:19 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, and its registration there predates the Foundation :)
+19:19 <@rich0> though GPL doesn't prohibit making money off of the binaries - it is only the source that has to be nominal cost and only to those you've already sold binaries to
+19:19 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, true - I was likening it to the GPL.
+19:20 <@NeddySeagoon> Any more on Lary the Cow
+19:20 <@NeddySeagoon> Item 6 Memership Applications
+19:20 <@dabbott> Yes all three
+19:20 <@NeddySeagoon> All gentoo devs - Montion at accept
+19:21 <@quantumsummers_> aye to all devs
+19:21 <@NeddySeagoon> aye
+19:21 <@rich0> aye
+19:21 <@robbat2> aye
+19:21 <@NeddySeagoon> Carried
+19:21 <@NeddySeagoon> Item 7 Advertising Requests
+19:21 <@NeddySeagoon> StartCom
+19:21 <@NeddySeagoon> robbat2, this is in exchange for Certs ?
+19:22 <@robbat2> startcom bit is on hold atm, so a timeline for a sec
+19:22 <@robbat2> StartCom approached us offering certs at greatly discounted (just basically the initial validation cost)
+19:23 <@robbat2> the trustees approved that, and at approximately the same time we got an offer from Comodo
+19:24 <@robbat2> that was late April
+19:25 <@robbat2> i haven't actually spent any more w/ StartCom yet, as I had to get various paperwork in order (their validation is of me directly [passport etc], and then the foundation's corporation stuff)
+19:25 < sping> i missed speaking up on larry the cow - can we do a second round on that? i don't feel it has got the needed attention yet as to what i see in the log above
+19:25 <@robbat2> in Comodo's favour, they actually use Gentoo
+19:26 <@robbat2> sping, wait for open floor
+19:26 < sping> robbat2: sure
+19:26 <@robbat2> StartCom uses linux, but hasn't said anything about Gentoo in specific
+19:27 <@NeddySeagoon> why would we choose one rather than the other ?
+19:28 <@robbat2> i need to follow up w/ Comodo to see if they would offer us similar stuff to what StartCom would (basically unlimited certs), as their initial email wasn't conclusion
+19:28 <@rich0> I think Comodo's offer was better (free I think - but not certain on the details / comparison). My biggest concern was that we said yes to StartCom already. I don't like saying yes and then saying "wait, we got a better offer."
+19:29 <@robbat2> mainly my concern is that startcom asked for what I consider to be a LOT of my personal information after I got started w/ them
+19:29 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, I'm with you there
+19:29 <@quantumsummers_> robbat2: that would bother me too
+19:29 <@rich0> robbat2: if the concern is over the details (personal info, etc), then I see that as grounds for reconsideration.
+19:29 <@quantumsummers_> there is no reason for it since we are incorporated
+19:30 <@NeddySeagoon> robbat2, Why - Its gentoo they are certifying. Not an individual
+19:30 <@rich0> we should in any case make sure that Comodo isn't just going to be the same way before canceling work-in-progress
+19:30 <@quantumsummers_> exactly the point, they should not tie it to a person, but the organization
+19:30 <@quantumsummers_> robbat2: are the EV certs?
+19:30 <@robbat2> StartCom's model is that people can be really verified, while organizations are less certain (eg who really is behind an org)
+19:31 <@rich0> I can see how they need to verify that the person is legally able to represent the organization.
+19:31 <@robbat2> in theory, EV in both offers
+19:31 <@quantumsummers_> that is good I guess
+19:31 <@rich0> I can call up and say "gimme a cert - MS is a corporation and here is a copy of their public paperwork"
+19:31 <@robbat2> they phone the # on the WHOIS records too ;-)
+19:31 <@robbat2> which points to me presently
+19:32 <@quantumsummers_> ah, as technical contact, yes
+19:32 <@rich0> If the personal detail aspect is the same in both cases, then I don't see how we can ethically back out on StartCom unless there is a material change in the agreement.
+19:32 <@quantumsummers_> I agree with rich0 here, although I do like the fact that comodo uses gentoo.
+19:33 <@NeddySeagoon> I am fairly protective of my personal data.
+19:33 <@NeddySeagoon> robbat2, how does it compatre to what CAcert wanted ?
+19:33 <@rich0> agreed on liking that aspect of Comodo, and perhaps we should explain the situation to them and see if they're still interested come time of renewal.
+19:34 <@NeddySeagoon> compare*
+19:34 <@robbat2> CACert has seen my id in person during their verification process (many years ago), but explicitly does not keep it or want it to be sent to them
+19:34 <@NeddySeagoon> That sounds fair
+19:34 <@NeddySeagoon> Then they can't lose it like Sony :)
+19:35 <@robbat2> re losing it, my id data for StartCom would be in Israel, and I don't know what control I do have if they lose it
+19:36 <@NeddySeagoon> robbat2, its your personal info. If you think its overly intrusive. You have my support to drop negiotiations
+19:36 <@robbat2> Comodo is US-based, New Jersey, so I have more control of my info there
+19:36 <@robbat2> ok, so re handling this:
+19:36 <@quantumsummers_> robbat2: no control at all, but I have several contacts in the gov't there if things get rough
+19:37 <@quantumsummers_> proceed, sorry to interrupt
+19:37 <@robbat2> i'll contact Comodo, and see if they can reasonably offer us what StartCom was, without my needing so much of my personal info
+19:37 <@robbat2> s/without my/without/
+19:38 <@robbat2> the $50/bi-annual fee that StartCom wanted wasn't a problem, so if they Comodo wants that, that's fine by me
+19:38 <@NeddySeagoon> robbat2, you are clearly not happy with Startcom and their demands - just drop them.
+19:39 <@rich0> I'm fine with switching as long as the reason is the personal info and there is a difference. That wasn't known at the time of the agreement, so I see it as a valid reason to go back if necessary.
+19:40 <@rich0> If in the end we do go with Comodo we should still thank StartCom for their offer. They made it sincerely.
+19:40 <@robbat2> yes
+19:40 <@NeddySeagoon> I'm fine with sticking with CAcert if the personal info demands are unreasonable, as judged by robbat2
+19:40 <@rich0> I'm fine with that as well.
+19:41 <@robbat2> we do need to move beyond CACert for forums/bugs long term, to make them more accessible to users
+19:41 <@robbat2> for the smaller sites, CACert is fine
+19:41 <@NeddySeagoon> robbat2, its your call.
+19:41 <@robbat2> i'll discuss w/ Comodo and make a more informed decision
+19:41 <@robbat2> and inform the board of matters
+19:42 <@NeddySeagoon> We will hold over StartCom until next month
+19:42 <@quantumsummers_> thanks robbat2
+19:42 <@NeddySeagoon> Date of Next Meeting - 19th Jun 2011 19:00 UTC
+19:42 <@quantumsummers_> +1
+19:42 <@NeddySeagoon> I should be ok
+19:42 <@dabbott> +1
+19:42 <@robbat2> +1 on my calendar
+19:43 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0,
+19:43 <@rich0> +1 - and I should still be free :)
+19:43 <@NeddySeagoon> :)
+19:43 <@NeddySeagoon> Any other business ... ?
+19:43 <@NeddySeagoon> robbat2, ?
+19:44 <@quantumsummers_> none from me (this time ;) )
+19:44 <@NeddySeagoon> heh
+19:44 <@robbat2> none from me, but sping is here for some
+19:44 <@NeddySeagoon> I have one item
+19:44 <@quantumsummers_> yes/
+19:44 < sping> NeddySeagoon: you first
+19:45 <@NeddySeagoon> we are about to be asked for DVDs for and a banner if there is one in South Ameraca
+19:45 <@NeddySeagoon> rafaelmartins will be leading
+19:46 <@dabbott> cool
+19:46 <@NeddySeagoon> that was my item
+19:46 <@NeddySeagoon> dabbott, AoB ?
+19:46 <@dabbott> no cool that he is doing it :0
+19:46 <@quantumsummers_> fwiw, fedex-kinkos has nice outdorr vinyl 3'x5x banner for $60 (half price) right now. I made one for my wife's company last week, turned out well.
+19:47 < sping> on larry: may I?
+19:47 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, Gentoo owns 5. International shipping is a PITA
+19:47 <@quantumsummers_> ok.
+19:47 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, AoB ?
+19:47 <@rich0> nothing new for me
+19:48 <@NeddySeagoon> sping, 2 minuets
+19:48 < sping> NeddySeagoon: what does that mean?
+19:48 <@robbat2> 5 banners? i know of 2 of them? where are the other 3?
+19:48 <@NeddySeagoon> Responsibilities. I'll post log, wite to new members and mattst88
+19:48 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: thank you.
+19:48 <@dabbott> I have the motions
+19:48 <@NeddySeagoon> robbat2, I think there are two in Europe
+19:49 <@NeddySeagoon> Open Floor
+19:49 <@NeddySeagoon> sping, - your turn
+19:49 < sping> i currently understand the EULA of font haed inc on larry's head as a license, not trademark
+19:50 < sping> that may mean that we cannot derive artwork from it under creative commons
+19:50 < sping> which would be bad for the gentoo pool of artwork
+19:50 <@NeddySeagoon> sping, do you have a link to the EULA ?
+19:50 < sping>
+19:51 < sping> most important point is the one on "primary aspect of a product for resale" probably
+19:51 <@quantumsummers_> I think what we may have to do is make our own larry head OR ask them for rights to use that "letter" representation freely.
+19:51 < sping> if you have a mug with larries head and "gentoo" below it you may argue about primary aspects
+19:52 < sping> we can only get a trademark (or free licensing) in co-op with font head inc, of course
+19:52 <@rich0> So, here is my thought - we either are allowed by FontHead or not to use the logo in various ways. Anything we do with trademarks can only take away the rights of others - it cannot do anything to grant rights we don't already have.
+19:52 <@NeddySeagoon> sping, we will need to talk with them
+19:53 < sping> NeddySeagoon: yes, but we need to know what to ask for before that
+19:53 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, correct - we cannot trademark it
+19:53 <@NeddySeagoon> sping, do you have any detailed thoughts ?
+19:54 <@dabbott> does it make any difference that drobbins was using it before 2009?
+19:54 < sping> dabbott: it may if we had a copy of the EULA version from back then. he doesn't have a copy around as to what he said
+19:55 <@quantumsummers_> wayback machine have a copy?
+19:55 < sping> the current EULA is newer than the font by several years
+19:56 < sping> no, see*/
+19:56 <@robbat2>
+19:56 <@robbat2> that's the earliest I find on
+19:57 <@rich0> Looking at the oldest copy from Feb 2009 on I don't see it as being any better from a use standpoint. That primary purpose bit could get us.
+19:57 <@quantumsummers_> perhaps contact should be made. It may be necessary to purchase the rights or something
+19:57 <@rich0> Unless somebody has an even older copy we need to work with them regarding licensing.
+19:57 <@quantumsummers_> maybe we can request the old versions?
+19:58 <@quantumsummers_> surely they have it. or maybe there is an old tarball lying around with it
+19:58 <@robbat2>
+19:58 <@robbat2> "The typefaces on this page are ones that we want you to use and enjoy free of charge. Use them in your personal and commercial projects, websites, logos or whatever else you are designing. "
+19:59 <@quantumsummers_> robbat2: nice
+19:59 <@robbat2> that 2007 page includes no other limitations
+19:59 <@rich0> robbat2: great find
+19:59 <@quantumsummers_> so, based on the original license we are free to do whatever
+19:59 <@NeddySeagoon> robbat2, good one
+19:59 <@robbat2> so maybe we use it, and contact FontHeads and offer attribution and linking back to them
+20:00 <@quantumsummers_> they could in theory argue the case, but since all the artwork pre-dates that document I think we are in the clear
+20:00 <@dabbott> robbat2, +1
+20:00 <@robbat2> sping, are you ok with that?
+20:01 <@NeddySeagoon> we should at least talk to them, so they don't find out for themselves and think we are violating the current EULA
+20:01 <@quantumsummers_> Yes we should
+20:01 <@quantumsummers_> I wonder about any changes to the font that would force us under the new license.
+20:01 <@NeddySeagoon> sping, ?
+20:01 <@rich0> agreed with this plan. We could in theory just claim copyright on larry then, and license however we wish, since we're not redistributing the font itself
+20:02 < sping> i'm thinking, wait
+20:02 <@quantumsummers_> rich0: I agree
+20:02 <@rich0> It is a derivative work, clearly, but one which they allowed
+20:02 <@robbat2> <--- earliest appearence of the font heads font
+20:02 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, I think thats splitting hairs - we can't claim copyright on someone elses artwork
+20:02 <@rich0> I'd recommend circulating any initial contact letter with the trustees before sending.
+20:03 < sping> robbat2: does the TTF windows zip download at that page work for you?
+20:03 < sping> robbat2: the zip seems to be odd, not sure yet
+20:03 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: since its incorporated into a larger work, I think we can.
+20:03 <@rich0> Sure we can - larry as a whole is clearly an original creation. Something that is a derivative work is still copyrightable, you just need a license from whoever you derived it from.
+20:03 <@robbat2> sping, the link from the 20050424 page does work yes
+20:03 <@quantumsummers_> which, based on the original license we have
+20:04 <@rich0> You copyright A, I can copyright ABC. I still need your permission to distribute it, but you can't distribute ABC without my permission either.
+20:04 <@NeddySeagoon> sping it downloads
+20:04 <@dabbott> 2007 download works also
+20:04 < sping> robbat2: maybe it's just xarchiver troubling, let me see
+20:04 <@robbat2>
+20:05 <@robbat2> ok, there is a problem
+20:05 <@robbat2> in that zipfile there is a more restrictive license than the page
+20:05 <@NeddySeagoon> The licence is the zip file is quite different to the web page
+20:06 < sping> yes, the primary aspect thing is in the 2005 zip file license already
+20:06 <@robbat2> sorry to get hopes up w/ the 2007/2005 pages
+20:06 <@quantumsummers_> alright, we just need to talk with them in this case. that, or prepare for legal wrangling
+20:07 <@NeddySeagoon> talk to them first
+20:07 <@quantumsummers_> yep
+20:07 < sping> robbat2: it's still a great finding
+20:07 <@rich0> Yeah, not sure if larry is worth getting in a pitched battle over
+20:07 <@NeddySeagoon> Its not
+20:07 <@quantumsummers_> make a new one, that would be the easy way to go if our talks fail
+20:08 <@NeddySeagoon> yeah
+20:08 <@quantumsummers_> pixel shift a bit here and there
+20:08 < sping> imho making a new one is no option
+20:08 <@quantumsummers_> still retain the iconic look
+20:08 <@rich0> It can't just be a pixel-shift.
+20:08 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, that would be a derived work ...
+20:08 < sping> pixel shift doesn't help either, it's still derived work
+20:08 <@rich0> It has to be clearly defensible as an original creation.
+20:09 < sping> actually the version of larry used most looks different already - that came from rectracing from bitmap afaik
+20:09 <@rich0> Semblence might be ok in some regards, but the more different the better - at least the face.
+20:09 <@NeddySeagoon> we won't solve it here and now
+20:09 < sping> re-tracing i mean
+20:09 < sping> so what are we going to ask font head inc?
+20:10 < sping> releasing the head as CC-BY-SA?
+20:10 < sping> dropping the primary aspect thing on larry?
+20:10 <@quantumsummers_> lets discuss over email and try to get something to them in a week. sound ok? who on the board wants the task?
+20:10 <@NeddySeagoon> can gentoo use the glyph
+20:10 < sping> NeddySeagoon: ?
+20:11 < sping> NeddySeagoon: what do you mean?
+20:11 <@quantumsummers_> glyph == letter
+20:11 <@quantumsummers_> "Font Head people: can we use it?"
+20:11 < sping> sure, i don't get the rest of the point
+20:12 <@NeddySeagoon> sping, Gentoo has used the Larry the Cow glyph for as long as I can remember. As far as I know there was never any agreement with the font owner
+20:12 <@quantumsummers_> we simply need to ask them if we can have the right to use the letter for our stuff freely
+20:12 <@quantumsummers_> or continue to exercise our right as the case may be
+20:13 < sping> NeddySeagoon: i suspect the past usage fit the EULA - in that case no extra agreement would be needed, right?
+20:13 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, and in exchange for attribution
+20:13 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: sounds fine to me, and more than they get now
+20:13 <@rich0> Might not hurt to include a copy of larry as a whole with the letter. So that they understand that the head is part of a greater work.
+20:13 <@robbat2> can somebody trace down our earliest use of Larry?
+20:13 <@NeddySeagoon> sping, I suspect it does too but after finding that more restivtive licence in the zip file, it may just have been overlooked
+20:13 <@quantumsummers_> robbat2: you seem to have the knack ;)
+20:14 < sping> NeddySeagoon: good point
+20:14 -!- Dr_Who [~tgall@] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
+20:14 <@NeddySeagoon> restrictive*
+20:15 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers, you are wearing your Teflon overcoat
+20:15 <@rich0> The webpage wording still offers that anybody can use it for almost anything, including as a logo.
+20:15 <@rich0> Clearly logos get made into T-shirts and what have you.
+20:15 < sping> robbat2: 8 years before at least:
+20:15 <@NeddySeagoon> rich0, at best - the licences conflict. That means we should have asked
+20:15 <@rich0> So, you could argue that was a license. We should mention that webpage when we contact them.
+20:16 <@rich0> NeddySeagoon: agree on the SHOULD.
+20:16 <@robbat2> ooh, that predates the 2005 link I pasted in
+20:16 <@quantumsummers_> bug 27727
+20:16 < willikins> quantumsummers_: "Larry can NOT be a Cow."; Docs-user, Other; RESO, WONT; jensthiede:docs-team
+20:16 <@quantumsummers_>
+20:16 <@rich0> However, failing to ask does not in inself surrender rights, it just gives up the opportunity to get them explicitly before becoming committed.
+20:16 < sping> i can make a letter proposal and send it to trustees@g.o for review
+20:16 <@robbat2> Wed Jan 2 20:53:58 2002 UTC (9 years, 4 months ago)
+20:17 <@dabbott> sping, that would be super :)
+20:17 <@quantumsummers_> super duper even
+20:17 <@robbat2> rev 1.1 of the fishhead.gif file is 2 jan 2002
+20:18 <@NeddySeagoon> sping, please do.
+20:19 <@NeddySeagoon> Swift is still around - he may know something
+20:19 <@NeddySeagoon> Any more for open floor ?
+20:20 <@quantumsummers_> NeddySeagoon: I asked Swift
+20:20 <@quantumsummers_> he may join the channel
+20:20 <@quantumsummers_> if I caught him in time
+20:20 <@NeddySeagoon> ok
+20:21 <@robbat2> <-- new earliest discovery of the fontheads page, but download links are broken there
+20:22 <@quantumsummers_> seems like drobbins may have been buddies with those peeps
+20:22 < sping> robbat2: the font itself exists since 10-11-2000 at least
+20:23 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers_, that figures
+20:24 < sping> quantumsummers_: how come you think so?
+20:24 <@quantumsummers_> didn't he say as much on irc?
+20:25 < sping> quantumsummers_: that was referring to another font, not larry's head
+20:25 <@quantumsummers_> ah. ok
+20:25 < sping> quantumsummers_: if you refer to the custom font by a friend of his family thing
+20:25 <@quantumsummers_> ah yes, that is correct
+20:26 <@quantumsummers_> getting old, memory is imperfect
+20:27 <@NeddySeagoon> any more for open floor ?
+20:27 <@quantumsummers_> well, I need to attend to some house/marital duties ... anything else to discuss?
+20:27 * NeddySeagoon bangs the gavel to close the meeting
+Post meeting chatter included
+20:27 * rich0 seconds
+20:27 <@quantumsummers_> thanks y'all :)
+20:27 <@NeddySeagoon> Thank you everyone
+20:27 < sping> any news on forwaring my questions to the lawer contact you have?
+20:28 < sping> okay, let's do that with e-mail
+20:28 < sping> see you
+20:28 <@quantumsummers_> sping: have not heard back yet. I'll poke again.
+20:28 -!- SwifT [~Sven@gentoo/user/SwifT] has joined #gentoo-trustees
+20:28 -!- mode/#gentoo-trustees [+v SwifT] by ChanServ
+20:28 <@NeddySeagoon> sping, thanks
+20:28 <@quantumsummers_> hey SwifT :)
+20:28 <+SwifT> hiya
+20:28 <@NeddySeagoon> Hi SwifT
+20:28 <+SwifT> so what's the question exactly?
+20:29 <@quantumsummers_> SwifT: do you have any info on larry's lineage?
+20:29 <@quantumsummers_> mainly regarding licensing for use by Gentoo
+20:30 <+SwifT> well, larry was already present in gentoo before I arrived; I can remember that the first larry sign was based on a font, but I'm not sure if that changed since
+20:30 <+SwifT> you know, a font where each character is a drawing
+20:30 <+SwifT> seemant might know the exacts of this, he was already a senior developer when I joined :)
+20:30 <@quantumsummers_> SwifT: yes, we are aware of that now, the font bit anyway
+20:30 <@robbat2> we've got it traced back to 2002/01/02 by Gentoo
+20:30 <@quantumsummers_> seemant would be good to ask
+20:31 <+a3li> might be a bit difficult, quantumsummers_
+20:31 <@quantumsummers_> a3li: how's that?
+20:31 <+a3li> he basically 'left' gentoo yesterday or so
+20:31 <@NeddySeagoon> seemant is still around too
+20:31 <+a3li> or rather left behind
+20:31 <@quantumsummers_> what?
+20:31 <+SwifT> heh, trying to look it up redirects me to ;-)
+20:31 <@quantumsummers_> Well I missed that somehow
+20:31 <@quantumsummers_> I know where to find him outside gentoo
+20:31 <@quantumsummers_> a3li: what happened?
+20:32 <+SwifT> I'll see if I can dig something up in my e-mail archives, but I'm afraid I won't be of much use more about it
+20:32 <+a3li> quantumsummers_: he just wanted to move on, I guess. no details I can share
+20:32 <@quantumsummers_> SwifT: thanks all the same
+20:32 <+SwifT> np
+20:32 -!- SwifT [~Sven@gentoo/user/SwifT] has left #gentoo-trustees []
+20:32 <@quantumsummers_> a3li: huh, odd.
+20:33 <@NeddySeagoon> hes still on freenode
+20:34 <@NeddySeagoon> I'll include this post meeting chatter in the log